Note from Alexandros: This is the first guest post on DYOR, one of hopefully many in the future. Tim Williams reached out to tell me about an experiment he ran on ivermectin sourced from many different manufacturers. I was blown away by the relative simplicity of the experiment, his attention to detail, as well as the striking results. I asked him if he would write up his results in longer form so I could publish them here, he obliged, and here we are. Truly an example of doing your own research if I’ve ever seen one.
I really appreciate all the work that went into this. And thank you for presenting it here for us, Tim and Alexandros. One thing I would be interested in seeing added is how the veterinary preparations of ivermectin perform in comparison to human pills on these planaria - specifically to one or more of the most common brands of horse paste - eg, duramectin, bimectin etc. Also ivermectin liquid for horses. Many people are self-treating with these products out of necessity. I recall reading a peer-reviewed paper from years ago that compared human pills to horsepaste ivermectin in an African country to determine if the horsepaste was equivalently effective with no additional adverse effects. and it was equivalent on both counts. So the conclusion of the study was that horsepaste could be used if that's what was available.
Jun 13, 2022Liked by Alexandros Marinos, Tim Williams
Though I must admit I couldn't stop myself from feeling a little sorry for the worms--no food and a tortuous death looming!--I otherwise appreciate this post...
Jun 13, 2022Liked by Alexandros Marinos, Tim Williams
Fascinatingly original research by Tim Williams. (And a big SO for his being a UC Berkeley alumnus!)
Thinking of possibly analogous circumstances where even nearly identical lab experiments might yield different results, depending on some of the inputs used?
"A band of more than 50 scientists has created a website to help biologists avoid poor-quality chemical reagents that undermine experiments in molecular biology and drug discovery."
A specific example: "commercial reagents, which were purchased from highly respected companies, were not pure but contained many contaminants which had a huge and potentially misleading effect on the scientists’ work."
Jun 14, 2022Liked by Alexandros Marinos, Tim Williams
Interesting, my misses is a doctor and suggested brand name drugs would be better quality than generic versions. I was kind of sceptical until seeing this.
Oxford Principle trial have been using Edenbridge haven’t they? Did they change brand when supply ran out earlier in the year?
Alexandros I’d advise you to rest up, your going to have a big job ahead of you when the Ivermectin results are released from that trial.
I’ll have an early stab at the results:
1. Days after onset of symptoms when IVM started will be poorly documented and hard to decider but eventually will be on average about 5, with 50% of patients starting later
2. There will be trends of benefit throughout every parameter yet all will be just short of statistical significance
3. The period when supply ran short will be crucial, with 10’s of thousands of cases per day not being potentially enrolled. Scant mention in the discussion how possibly supply went short
4. The trial will proudly declare “no benefit whatsoever”
5. Many doctors around the world will continue to use IVM with seemingly inexplicable excellent results
Novel approach and yes it is valid for parasites and how much that would hold up for anti-viral effects we don't know. Interesting to see the range of treatment days. Maybe some worms are tougher than others? LOL.
It would be good to just be able to get Ivermectin from a chemist when you need it but we'll have to make do. The medical professionals will not be there for us when we need them so we need to stock up. Now that Tennessee and a few others have gone OTC (Over The Counter) we'll see if quality picks up.
as a sheep farmer than uses various dewormers, it's my general understanding that the mode of action is not that the dewormer kills the worm but paralyzes it which then allows the animal to excrete it. not sure if that is the case with ivermection or not. actually invermectin is rarely used anymore (although it was a miracle drug when it first came on the market) due to widespread parasite resistance.
Hi Tim and Alex. This is a really interesting post! The inference here is that different days in death may relate to differences in Ivermectin content? I suppose more analytical techniques would be costly but have you considered mass spectrometry or LC-MS to test for purity? Or other analytical methods.
Another qualitative test could be to test using the same ivermectin manufacturer across different worms and see if high variation in death may occur, which may raise questions into consistency of formulation.
Thank you for this very important work. Such great info! On the 3 you have from India, do they list the manufacturer? I have 2 different ones from there - Ivervid12 and Covimectin (12mgs)
I really appreciate all the work that went into this. And thank you for presenting it here for us, Tim and Alexandros. One thing I would be interested in seeing added is how the veterinary preparations of ivermectin perform in comparison to human pills on these planaria - specifically to one or more of the most common brands of horse paste - eg, duramectin, bimectin etc. Also ivermectin liquid for horses. Many people are self-treating with these products out of necessity. I recall reading a peer-reviewed paper from years ago that compared human pills to horsepaste ivermectin in an African country to determine if the horsepaste was equivalently effective with no additional adverse effects. and it was equivalent on both counts. So the conclusion of the study was that horsepaste could be used if that's what was available.
Though I must admit I couldn't stop myself from feeling a little sorry for the worms--no food and a tortuous death looming!--I otherwise appreciate this post...
Just got my Veridex order from Mexico today! Glad to see it leading the pack. Great article.
Fascinatingly original research by Tim Williams. (And a big SO for his being a UC Berkeley alumnus!)
Thinking of possibly analogous circumstances where even nearly identical lab experiments might yield different results, depending on some of the inputs used?
Here's one: reagent quality affecting experimental results.
"A band of more than 50 scientists has created a website to help biologists avoid poor-quality chemical reagents that undermine experiments in molecular biology and drug discovery."
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18027
A specific example: "commercial reagents, which were purchased from highly respected companies, were not pure but contained many contaminants which had a huge and potentially misleading effect on the scientists’ work."
https://www.keele.ac.uk/research/researchnews/2017/researcherswarnscientistsofcostlyimpurechemicals.php
Fabulous work Tim, appreciate the effort! Alex, do we know which version/brand was used in the TOGETHER Trial?
I’m surprised they didn’t dose the control group 3 days in, like all the FDA approved studies are doing now!
Interesting, my misses is a doctor and suggested brand name drugs would be better quality than generic versions. I was kind of sceptical until seeing this.
Oxford Principle trial have been using Edenbridge haven’t they? Did they change brand when supply ran out earlier in the year?
Alexandros I’d advise you to rest up, your going to have a big job ahead of you when the Ivermectin results are released from that trial.
I’ll have an early stab at the results:
1. Days after onset of symptoms when IVM started will be poorly documented and hard to decider but eventually will be on average about 5, with 50% of patients starting later
2. There will be trends of benefit throughout every parameter yet all will be just short of statistical significance
3. The period when supply ran short will be crucial, with 10’s of thousands of cases per day not being potentially enrolled. Scant mention in the discussion how possibly supply went short
4. The trial will proudly declare “no benefit whatsoever”
5. Many doctors around the world will continue to use IVM with seemingly inexplicable excellent results
Eye opening and thoughtful. Thanks for careful experiment and reproducible reporting.
This is a nice piece of work. thanks. Contact me if you want more brands to try out...
Novel approach and yes it is valid for parasites and how much that would hold up for anti-viral effects we don't know. Interesting to see the range of treatment days. Maybe some worms are tougher than others? LOL.
It would be good to just be able to get Ivermectin from a chemist when you need it but we'll have to make do. The medical professionals will not be there for us when we need them so we need to stock up. Now that Tennessee and a few others have gone OTC (Over The Counter) we'll see if quality picks up.
Really appreciate this! And all of your work, Alexandros -- so so very truly. Thank you.
as a sheep farmer than uses various dewormers, it's my general understanding that the mode of action is not that the dewormer kills the worm but paralyzes it which then allows the animal to excrete it. not sure if that is the case with ivermection or not. actually invermectin is rarely used anymore (although it was a miracle drug when it first came on the market) due to widespread parasite resistance.
Hi Tim and Alex. This is a really interesting post! The inference here is that different days in death may relate to differences in Ivermectin content? I suppose more analytical techniques would be costly but have you considered mass spectrometry or LC-MS to test for purity? Or other analytical methods.
Another qualitative test could be to test using the same ivermectin manufacturer across different worms and see if high variation in death may occur, which may raise questions into consistency of formulation.
Thank you for this very important work. Such great info! On the 3 you have from India, do they list the manufacturer? I have 2 different ones from there - Ivervid12 and Covimectin (12mgs)
Thank you, Tim, for sharing the results of this very solid personal study with us.