Note from Alexandros: This is the first guest post on DYOR, one of hopefully many in the future. Tim Williams reached out to tell me about an experiment he ran on ivermectin sourced from many different manufacturers. I was blown away by the relative simplicity of the experiment, his attention to detail, as well as the striking results. I asked him if he would write up his results in longer form so I could publish them here, he obliged, and here we are. Truly an example of doing your own research if I’ve ever seen one.
I really appreciate all the work that went into this. And thank you for presenting it here for us, Tim and Alexandros. One thing I would be interested in seeing added is how the veterinary preparations of ivermectin perform in comparison to human pills on these planaria - specifically to one or more of the most common brands of horse paste - eg, duramectin, bimectin etc. Also ivermectin liquid for horses. Many people are self-treating with these products out of necessity. I recall reading a peer-reviewed paper from years ago that compared human pills to horsepaste ivermectin in an African country to determine if the horsepaste was equivalently effective with no additional adverse effects. and it was equivalent on both counts. So the conclusion of the study was that horsepaste could be used if that's what was available.
Hi Kim! I appreciate your comments. I did actually test the Ivermectin gel form for horses in a prior experiment, and I can try to get some points up soon for that test and its accompanying graphs.
Family and friends used the 1% sterile injectable and drank it in water. Worked well for 6/6 high risk people I know. Remember - animals have dollar value - we're the expendable ones so they will be quite careful with it. Light sensitive, so try for the ones in amber bottles and store in the refrigerator (not freezer) for extended shelf life. CA has an import ban - can't bring it into the state.
If you have a friend in any other state, they can get it, send it.
No. My horse's Zimecterin paste says to store between 68-77 F, with 59-86F permitted for short excursions. This would have more to do with the paste it is in. I'd keep to these temps, like they are inside a house. There are many people out there who have used horse paste to treat their covid successfully and might have personal knowledge that I don't have that could better answer your question.
When the info on IVM was first coming out, all my friends and family got the 1% vet injectable to have on hand to be syringed out and put in water to drink, just in case. Back in July 2020, 2 doses saved my 93 yr old dad's life and prevented his wife from getting it. In Dec 2020, My girlfriend and her husband got covid and used it. and she even told a friend having difficulty kicking it, who used it and got over it quickly. My other girlfriend was having a bad reaction to the Moderna and used it to completely eliminate that (but she took it quickly). No one got long covid either. Remember - these are made for animals that you can put a dollar figure on - we're the expendable ones. The stuff works. Thank you Jay Sanchez!
I wish Jay Sanchez were still on twitter. we were friends there. he got deplatformed - like so many of us. i came back with a new account. jay doesn't seem to have done so.
Here's what I came up with for my "cattle and pigs" that drink espresso. All my cattle have commented that it is WAY better than IVM in water. This recipe uses 1% Ivermectin for subcutaneous injection, but is used orally in whipped cream on the expresso! It is based upon the theory (maybe a well proven fact now?) that taking it orally with a meal or some other source of fats will yield better absorption and concentration towards the pulmonary system than simple IVM with water on an empty stomach. Put a small amount of Heavy Whipping Cream into a small glass or ceramic mug (maybe 4 oz. size?). Add just a smidgin (one TINY squeeze) of a Caramel or Hazelnut sugar-free coffee enhancer (Safew*y carries them), and then your syringe-measured IVM according to the weight of the cow. Whip it up with a hand frother, and voila, the most delicious way to get IVM to be well-absorbed.
Kim - This product is given to triple crown winners and other million-dollar sport horses. It better be accurate. If one of these horses died from a parasite because it was established that the product was contaminated or no good, the multimillion dollar syndicates who own some of these guys would make it a living hell for the manufacturer.
Though I must admit I couldn't stop myself from feeling a little sorry for the worms--no food and a tortuous death looming!--I otherwise appreciate this post...
But quality can still vary from batch to batch - anything can. Or this one can be counterfeit. It is very frustrating. But if this is your only route to obtaining IVM, you chose well.
It’s my second time ordering from the same pharmacy. The first time the batch seemed to do its job. Hope this time is the same should I come to need it.
Hope so, too. Batches change pretty frequently. My friend just got Omicron after having the alpha 18 months ago and is taking Ivervid and it seems to be working great. She started Day 1 and Day 2 felt much better. So far, so good. She is taking approx 0.32 mgs/kg/day. Not vaxxed. Good to know you had a positive experience with Veridex. If you ever become a telemed patient, there are at least some US compounding pharmacies where they sell IVM and the price isn't obscene.
Oxford Principle trial have been using Edenbridge haven’t they? Did they change brand when supply ran out earlier in the year?
Alexandros I’d advise you to rest up, your going to have a big job ahead of you when the Ivermectin results are released from that trial.
I’ll have an early stab at the results:
1. Days after onset of symptoms when IVM started will be poorly documented and hard to decider but eventually will be on average about 5, with 50% of patients starting later
2. There will be trends of benefit throughout every parameter yet all will be just short of statistical significance
3. The period when supply ran short will be crucial, with 10’s of thousands of cases per day not being potentially enrolled. Scant mention in the discussion how possibly supply went short
4. The trial will proudly declare “no benefit whatsoever”
5. Many doctors around the world will continue to use IVM with seemingly inexplicable excellent results
I don't think so. I looked at the Activ-6 NCT04885530 and they gave 7 mg tablets. Can't find any info other than Edenbridge sells 3 mg tablets. Can't find anyone selling 7 mg tablets. Compounded?
Fascinatingly original research by Tim Williams. (And a big SO for his being a UC Berkeley alumnus!)
Thinking of possibly analogous circumstances where even nearly identical lab experiments might yield different results, depending on some of the inputs used?
"A band of more than 50 scientists has created a website to help biologists avoid poor-quality chemical reagents that undermine experiments in molecular biology and drug discovery."
A specific example: "commercial reagents, which were purchased from highly respected companies, were not pure but contained many contaminants which had a huge and potentially misleading effect on the scientists’ work."
The first thing a scientist learns, or should, is to record everything about the meds/chemcials that are used in an experiment, including brand and batch number.
Interesting, my misses is a doctor and suggested brand name drugs would be better quality than generic versions. I was kind of sceptical until seeing this.
Novel approach and yes it is valid for parasites and how much that would hold up for anti-viral effects we don't know. Interesting to see the range of treatment days. Maybe some worms are tougher than others? LOL.
It would be good to just be able to get Ivermectin from a chemist when you need it but we'll have to make do. The medical professionals will not be there for us when we need them so we need to stock up. Now that Tennessee and a few others have gone OTC (Over The Counter) we'll see if quality picks up.
as a sheep farmer than uses various dewormers, it's my general understanding that the mode of action is not that the dewormer kills the worm but paralyzes it which then allows the animal to excrete it. not sure if that is the case with ivermection or not. actually invermectin is rarely used anymore (although it was a miracle drug when it first came on the market) due to widespread parasite resistance.
Hi Tim and Alex. This is a really interesting post! The inference here is that different days in death may relate to differences in Ivermectin content? I suppose more analytical techniques would be costly but have you considered mass spectrometry or LC-MS to test for purity? Or other analytical methods.
Another qualitative test could be to test using the same ivermectin manufacturer across different worms and see if high variation in death may occur, which may raise questions into consistency of formulation.
Thanks for your comments! Yes, that would be the inference here. And you are correct that HPLC or MS would be very costly. I reached out to one analytical chem site that quoted $1000 (I think per sample, or perhaps per batch of samples) for testing. I discussed with a forensic chemist contact and he said that HPLC would be a good way to go for purity. There are probably reagents and instruments at my workplace in biotech, but I have no rationale for having access to them, since it would be unrelated to my work. I know Sabine Hazan's lab did some work on purity testing of diff IVM sources (and I've been trying to get ahold of her, but she's a busy gal), though I'm not sure of their testing method.
Thanks, Sybil! I appreciate that. My small part to play in this. Also, can I ask if/how you recently heard of this post? I have seen some new likes and comments and wasn’t sure if it was referenced somewhere more recently. Cheers!
Saw it from Substack homepage news feed, good man. I have a high interest in IVM and took it for 2 years @ the height of the pandemic. Got it from a doc in Texas - telemedicine - who scripted me through a compounding pharmacist in his town. Relatives had to pick it up and ship it to me. We need it back on the OTC shelves. Do you think that will ever happen?
I hope and pray it will become an OTC (I know there were certain states pushing for that), but honestly there is some evidence it has potential to disrupt some other otherwise lucrative industries, so I have my doubts.
P. S. Tim - I could never bring myself to order from online advertisers, even those recommended by the most earnest Substack commenters. Just couldn’t do it. Your research confirmed my gut instincts. That is how important your research is. Keep it up!
Thank you for this very important work. Such great info! On the 3 you have from India, do they list the manufacturer? I have 2 different ones from there - Ivervid12 and Covimectin (12mgs)
I've bought from Kachhela a bunch of times for myself and others, and have witnessed good effectiveness with their product. Their Iverbest and Iverlast 3 mg, 6 mg, 12 mg, tablets are manufactured by BRD Medilabs, a cGMP manufacturer. Kachhela is a (the?) distributor for them. https://www.brdmedilabs.com/
I really appreciate all the work that went into this. And thank you for presenting it here for us, Tim and Alexandros. One thing I would be interested in seeing added is how the veterinary preparations of ivermectin perform in comparison to human pills on these planaria - specifically to one or more of the most common brands of horse paste - eg, duramectin, bimectin etc. Also ivermectin liquid for horses. Many people are self-treating with these products out of necessity. I recall reading a peer-reviewed paper from years ago that compared human pills to horsepaste ivermectin in an African country to determine if the horsepaste was equivalently effective with no additional adverse effects. and it was equivalent on both counts. So the conclusion of the study was that horsepaste could be used if that's what was available.
Hi Kim! I appreciate your comments. I did actually test the Ivermectin gel form for horses in a prior experiment, and I can try to get some points up soon for that test and its accompanying graphs.
Family and friends used the 1% sterile injectable and drank it in water. Worked well for 6/6 high risk people I know. Remember - animals have dollar value - we're the expendable ones so they will be quite careful with it. Light sensitive, so try for the ones in amber bottles and store in the refrigerator (not freezer) for extended shelf life. CA has an import ban - can't bring it into the state.
If you have a friend in any other state, they can get it, send it.
Do you think I should put my horsepaste in the fridge?
No. My horse's Zimecterin paste says to store between 68-77 F, with 59-86F permitted for short excursions. This would have more to do with the paste it is in. I'd keep to these temps, like they are inside a house. There are many people out there who have used horse paste to treat their covid successfully and might have personal knowledge that I don't have that could better answer your question.
Thanks Tim. I would appreciate seeing that.
When the info on IVM was first coming out, all my friends and family got the 1% vet injectable to have on hand to be syringed out and put in water to drink, just in case. Back in July 2020, 2 doses saved my 93 yr old dad's life and prevented his wife from getting it. In Dec 2020, My girlfriend and her husband got covid and used it. and she even told a friend having difficulty kicking it, who used it and got over it quickly. My other girlfriend was having a bad reaction to the Moderna and used it to completely eliminate that (but she took it quickly). No one got long covid either. Remember - these are made for animals that you can put a dollar figure on - we're the expendable ones. The stuff works. Thank you Jay Sanchez!
I wish Jay Sanchez were still on twitter. we were friends there. he got deplatformed - like so many of us. i came back with a new account. jay doesn't seem to have done so.
Here's what I came up with for my "cattle and pigs" that drink espresso. All my cattle have commented that it is WAY better than IVM in water. This recipe uses 1% Ivermectin for subcutaneous injection, but is used orally in whipped cream on the expresso! It is based upon the theory (maybe a well proven fact now?) that taking it orally with a meal or some other source of fats will yield better absorption and concentration towards the pulmonary system than simple IVM with water on an empty stomach. Put a small amount of Heavy Whipping Cream into a small glass or ceramic mug (maybe 4 oz. size?). Add just a smidgin (one TINY squeeze) of a Caramel or Hazelnut sugar-free coffee enhancer (Safew*y carries them), and then your syringe-measured IVM according to the weight of the cow. Whip it up with a hand frother, and voila, the most delicious way to get IVM to be well-absorbed.
Bon Appetit!
Kim - This product is given to triple crown winners and other million-dollar sport horses. It better be accurate. If one of these horses died from a parasite because it was established that the product was contaminated or no good, the multimillion dollar syndicates who own some of these guys would make it a living hell for the manufacturer.
Yes, that's been my reasoning for all the time I've been using it and advocating it.
Though I must admit I couldn't stop myself from feeling a little sorry for the worms--no food and a tortuous death looming!--I otherwise appreciate this post...
I’m surprised they didn’t dose the control group 3 days in, like all the FDA approved studies are doing now!
Ha!
But that would require effort and dedication to the study of people seriously seeking answers.
What des "dose the control group" mean?
It means it’s not longer a control group.
Just got my Veridex order from Mexico today! Glad to see it leading the pack. Great article.
You can order directly from Mex?
I believe so, yes: https://farmaciasdelnino.mx/eng/items/?kw=Veridex
But quality can still vary from batch to batch - anything can. Or this one can be counterfeit. It is very frustrating. But if this is your only route to obtaining IVM, you chose well.
It’s my second time ordering from the same pharmacy. The first time the batch seemed to do its job. Hope this time is the same should I come to need it.
Hope so, too. Batches change pretty frequently. My friend just got Omicron after having the alpha 18 months ago and is taking Ivervid and it seems to be working great. She started Day 1 and Day 2 felt much better. So far, so good. She is taking approx 0.32 mgs/kg/day. Not vaxxed. Good to know you had a positive experience with Veridex. If you ever become a telemed patient, there are at least some US compounding pharmacies where they sell IVM and the price isn't obscene.
Oxford Principle trial have been using Edenbridge haven’t they? Did they change brand when supply ran out earlier in the year?
Alexandros I’d advise you to rest up, your going to have a big job ahead of you when the Ivermectin results are released from that trial.
I’ll have an early stab at the results:
1. Days after onset of symptoms when IVM started will be poorly documented and hard to decider but eventually will be on average about 5, with 50% of patients starting later
2. There will be trends of benefit throughout every parameter yet all will be just short of statistical significance
3. The period when supply ran short will be crucial, with 10’s of thousands of cases per day not being potentially enrolled. Scant mention in the discussion how possibly supply went short
4. The trial will proudly declare “no benefit whatsoever”
5. Many doctors around the world will continue to use IVM with seemingly inexplicable excellent results
Funnily enough, I wrote that post without realising the ACTIV-6 trial has been published to pre-print.
Same points apply
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.06.10.22276252v1
https://c19ivermectin.com/activ6ivm.html
I don't think so. I looked at the Activ-6 NCT04885530 and they gave 7 mg tablets. Can't find any info other than Edenbridge sells 3 mg tablets. Can't find anyone selling 7 mg tablets. Compounded?
Fascinatingly original research by Tim Williams. (And a big SO for his being a UC Berkeley alumnus!)
Thinking of possibly analogous circumstances where even nearly identical lab experiments might yield different results, depending on some of the inputs used?
Here's one: reagent quality affecting experimental results.
"A band of more than 50 scientists has created a website to help biologists avoid poor-quality chemical reagents that undermine experiments in molecular biology and drug discovery."
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18027
A specific example: "commercial reagents, which were purchased from highly respected companies, were not pure but contained many contaminants which had a huge and potentially misleading effect on the scientists’ work."
https://www.keele.ac.uk/research/researchnews/2017/researcherswarnscientistsofcostlyimpurechemicals.php
Go Bears! Yeah, that’s an intriguing thought and fascinating articles.
Fabulous work Tim, appreciate the effort! Alex, do we know which version/brand was used in the TOGETHER Trial?
Nope. They told us what they used for fluvoxamine, but not for ivermectin.
The first thing a scientist learns, or should, is to record everything about the meds/chemcials that are used in an experiment, including brand and batch number.
Right. Alexandros is on it! ;)
Interesting, my misses is a doctor and suggested brand name drugs would be better quality than generic versions. I was kind of sceptical until seeing this.
Eye opening and thoughtful. Thanks for careful experiment and reproducible reporting.
This is a nice piece of work. thanks. Contact me if you want more brands to try out...
Novel approach and yes it is valid for parasites and how much that would hold up for anti-viral effects we don't know. Interesting to see the range of treatment days. Maybe some worms are tougher than others? LOL.
It would be good to just be able to get Ivermectin from a chemist when you need it but we'll have to make do. The medical professionals will not be there for us when we need them so we need to stock up. Now that Tennessee and a few others have gone OTC (Over The Counter) we'll see if quality picks up.
Really appreciate this! And all of your work, Alexandros -- so so very truly. Thank you.
Thank Tim!
as a sheep farmer than uses various dewormers, it's my general understanding that the mode of action is not that the dewormer kills the worm but paralyzes it which then allows the animal to excrete it. not sure if that is the case with ivermection or not. actually invermectin is rarely used anymore (although it was a miracle drug when it first came on the market) due to widespread parasite resistance.
Hi Tim and Alex. This is a really interesting post! The inference here is that different days in death may relate to differences in Ivermectin content? I suppose more analytical techniques would be costly but have you considered mass spectrometry or LC-MS to test for purity? Or other analytical methods.
Another qualitative test could be to test using the same ivermectin manufacturer across different worms and see if high variation in death may occur, which may raise questions into consistency of formulation.
Thanks for your comments! Yes, that would be the inference here. And you are correct that HPLC or MS would be very costly. I reached out to one analytical chem site that quoted $1000 (I think per sample, or perhaps per batch of samples) for testing. I discussed with a forensic chemist contact and he said that HPLC would be a good way to go for purity. There are probably reagents and instruments at my workplace in biotech, but I have no rationale for having access to them, since it would be unrelated to my work. I know Sabine Hazan's lab did some work on purity testing of diff IVM sources (and I've been trying to get ahold of her, but she's a busy gal), though I'm not sure of their testing method.
Hi Tim, great work, thank you!
I know this is from last year, but wanted you to know Dr. Hazan replies quickly to DM's on Twitter if you ever need her.
Shhh, don't tell anyone. 😁
Thanks, Carol! I gave that a try a few weeks ago, but no luck yet. We'll see!
This is beautiful! And so needed! Thank you, Tim Williams.
Thanks, Sybil! I appreciate that. My small part to play in this. Also, can I ask if/how you recently heard of this post? I have seen some new likes and comments and wasn’t sure if it was referenced somewhere more recently. Cheers!
Saw it from Substack homepage news feed, good man. I have a high interest in IVM and took it for 2 years @ the height of the pandemic. Got it from a doc in Texas - telemedicine - who scripted me through a compounding pharmacist in his town. Relatives had to pick it up and ship it to me. We need it back on the OTC shelves. Do you think that will ever happen?
I hope and pray it will become an OTC (I know there were certain states pushing for that), but honestly there is some evidence it has potential to disrupt some other otherwise lucrative industries, so I have my doubts.
P. S. Tim - I could never bring myself to order from online advertisers, even those recommended by the most earnest Substack commenters. Just couldn’t do it. Your research confirmed my gut instincts. That is how important your research is. Keep it up!
Thank you for this very important work. Such great info! On the 3 you have from India, do they list the manufacturer? I have 2 different ones from there - Ivervid12 and Covimectin (12mgs)
I've bought from Kachhela a bunch of times for myself and others, and have witnessed good effectiveness with their product. Their Iverbest and Iverlast 3 mg, 6 mg, 12 mg, tablets are manufactured by BRD Medilabs, a cGMP manufacturer. Kachhela is a (the?) distributor for them. https://www.brdmedilabs.com/